Transcript: NIR SIG
Disclaimer
Due to the difficulties capturing a live speaker's words, it is possible this transcript may contain errors and mistranslations. APNIC accepts no liability for any event or action resulting from the transcripts.
Tuesday, 24 August 2010, 14:00-15:30 (UTC +10)
IZUMI OKUTANI: So, welcome everybody to NIR SIG. It's time, so I'd like to start the session, and it seems that most of the people who are willing to attend the session are already in the room. As you can see, it's quite a small session with mostly NIRs, but then, of course, non-NIRs are very welcome to be in the room, and because we are also expecting some people to participate remotely, if you have anything, you know, I think that you can still speak without a microphone, but then I think we will have a microphone to be around the room. So please raise your hands and then we'll pass the microphone to you.
So that's just a very brief admin information. And today, we have three presentations from TWNIC, KRNIC of KISA and CRNIC, and we are also going to have an election of the co-chair, because Ching-Heng who had been helping us for a long time, he will not be running for the position again and he's probably involved, more involved in Policy SIG. So we will have an election this time. So the first agenda will be an NIR SIG election. And the candidate that we have for today, we just have one candidate for the election this time. So it's going to be an easy one. So we have Ji-Young from KRNIC of KISA. So, Ji-Young, would you like to make a very brief speech of what you've been up to and what you'd like to do as NIR co-chair?
JI-YOUNG LEE: Hi, everyone, my name is Ji-Young Lee of KRNIC of KISA. I'm a senior research associate, and I've been doing some work for resource management systems, and Internet exchange of KRNIC. I'm very honoured to be a volunteer for NIR SIG co-chair, so as you know, we are in a big time of change. We have only 5% of IPv4 addresses and it could be a big challenge to the NIRs, and maybe we need to work to minimise the impact to our members and open up the IPv6 environment for local communities. So, for that, maybe we need to set up a new resource management system and develop a new policy for our members. So far, I know that Izumi and Wendy and past co-chairs have been wonderful doing work for NIR SIG co-chairs and I'd like to make some contribution to make the NIR SIG...
to be a stage not only for NIRs, but also for other stakeholders who are interested in local communities. So I'd like to get your support. Thank you.
APPLAUSE
IZUMI OKUTANI: Thank you, Ji-Young. So, we only have Ji-Young, but then, please express your welcome to Ji-Young to the NIR SIG position if you feel that you strongly support Ji-Young.
APPLAUSE So welcome, Ji-Young, to the NIR SIG co-chair. And we would also like to express our thank you to Ching-Heng for helping us to chair as the NIR SIG co-chair, and we have a small gift.
APPLAUSE
IZUMI OKUTANI: So now, we'd like to move on to the actual presentations. And the first presenter will be?Sheng Wei ?Kuo from TWNIC.
SHENG WEI KUO: Hi, good afternoon. My name is Sheng ?Wei ?Kuo from TWNIC. Today, I will introduce the TWNIC update.
First, I will introduce the Taiwan IPv6 current stat us. Second, I will talk about the measurement of the IPv6 readiness in Taiwan. Third, I will introduce the project of IPv6 Taiwan Directory. Finally, we will make the conclusion.
As you know, we have an IPv6 in program in Taiwan since 2002. In the phrase one program, we focus on implementation. That is including in the infrastructure and the testing and application and promotion. In the phase 2 program, we focus on transition. That's including regulation and the policy, transition in the development and application and services. In this year, we focus on the IPv4, IPv6 policy. Now, in IPv4/IPv6 capability among ISPs, and fibre-to-home, ss network and Taiwan education network and the Government network.
Now, I will introduce the Taiwan IPv6 current status in infrastructure. Now, ten ISPs had deployed the IPv6 backbone. And we have IPv6 IX ?AS net Internet exchange, ASIX 6. It provides the mature IPv6 infrastructure for IPv6 development and implication. Share the IPv4/IPv6 transfer experience with IX participants. To minimise the cost for IX participants in the initial IPv6 construction. To improve the IPv6 traffic performance and the network quality.
In the access network, Taiwan Advanced Research Education network provides IPv4 and IPv6 dual services in this year. Chung-Hwa Telecom, NGN, will provide IPv4 and IPv6 dual services in this year. IPv6 tunnel services are provided in most ISPs since 2007.
Now, I will introduce another topic. The measurement of the IPv6 readiness in Taiwan. It started in September 2009. The measurement defined the IPv6 metrics set as the measure of the IPv6 readiness. To establish the method of analysing data using continuous measurement. To compile and publish the result of the measurement. This graph, this picture shows the measurement items to correspond to stakeholders. The green colour is users. The measurement items are included in the web query from IPv6, DNS query from IPv6. The red colour means vendors. They are including in IPv6 logo phase 1 and 2. The blue colour means ISP BGP, that's very important. So we divide two applications, SS network, core network.
The measurement items are included in IPv6 service in DNS. So the traffic in the IPv6 tunnel broker. The number of ISPs with IPv6 allocation that are advertised in BGP. IPv6 traffic in and out of Taiwan.
In the core network, you can see IPv6 traffic growth every month, but it is small. Now 21 megabits per?second. The graph is TWNIC's member with IPv6. Now, 20% of TWNIC members have IPv6 addresses, and 12% of TWNIC members have IPv6 addresses in BGP.
In the access network, TWNIC has seven major ISPs to deploy IPv6 tunnel broker, so it provides free IPv6 tunnel broker services in Taiwan since 2007. There are many types of IPv6 services. We chose IPv6 tunnel broker, only to know the trend of IPv6 access services in type want. In applications, you know TWNIC is also a CCTRD for ?.TW. So we look at the deployment of the DNS server. Now, the deployment rate of the DNS server is 3% (sp?). And the .tw server is 0.3% and the mail server is 0.03%.
In the DNS query, the IPv6 DNS query is 0.52%. In IPv6, the IPv4 access. It's in Taiwan, so you can find 25% in IPv6/IPv4 web access. The yellow colour means seven TWNIC domain names. It is the general case, so you can see the 0.02% of IPv6/IPv4 web access.
Now, I will produce the project of IPv6 Taiwan directory. As IPv4 addresses will soon run out, it is time that we take action on the deployment of IPv6. Many persons ask us, "Where can I find IPv6 enabled websites in Taiwan?" So, we do have the IPv6 websites enabled directory in Taiwan. And the general users may upload their IPv6 enabled website to our directory. This is the architecture of IPv6 Taiwan directory. We collect the IPv6 enabled websites from ?.tw ?DNS. And the school websites, and the general user update, and then we put the IPv6 enabled website in our directory. The URL is the v6directory.TWNIC.net.tw. Now, 716 IPv6 Taiwan enabled websites databases are including one Government website.
650 education websites. 65 company websites.
Now, I make a conclusion. Taiwan Internet industries begin to upgrade from IPv4 to IPv6 co-existence, but there are only small deployments. The further issue is the IPv6 transition strategy, as follows. IPv4 address exhaustion will happen in the next years. Coordination of ISPs/ICP deployment plan and vendor deployment is very critical. TWNIC will conduct a strategy study of IPv6 transition and deployment for ISP/ICP in Taiwan in the end of this year. The result of the strategy study will be the guideline for ISP/ICP. Thank you, thank you for listening. Are there any questions?
SATYA GUPTA: Thank you, my name is Satya Gupta from India. I have two or three small questions. And one is, like these IPv6 projects, which you are doing, whether it is an industry initiative, or it was funded or guided by the Government? Or regulator?
SHENG WEI KUO: You mean the Government?
SATYA GUPTA: No, was it IPv6 project, direct project, was the industries association, was it their own initiative, or was it funded by the Government?
SHENG WEI KUO: Government? No. No.
SATYA ?GUPTA: No, it is all industry.
SHENG WEI KUO: Yeah.
SATYA ?GUPTA: And the second question is, you've shown us the various websites which have registered for IPv6. And most of them are from educational institutes. So whether IPv6 provides something special, or some special service for the educational institutes. Is there anything unique in this for the educational institutes?
SHENG WEI KUO: We have IPv6 projects in Taiwan. In this year, we focused on the SS network and the Taiwan education network and the Government network, so you can find there are many education websites in IPv6.
SATYA GUPTA: OK, and also maybe with the permission of the chair, I can ask something about your own NIR. Because it is a NIR SIG. So maybe, basically about your NIR and how you are running it? Whether you have any difficulties? Any lessons to be learned for new NIRs?
IZUMI OKUTANI: (Inaudible) the operation of the NIRs? OK, sure, I think that's a really great topic of discussion, but actually, this is not related to this particular presentation. So, I think that I would like to move this topic to a later time in the agenda. And it is probably better if we can exchange more details individually, unless we have something general that we can share. Is that OK?
SATYA GUPTA: Yes, of course. Because basically, we have come here to know more about the NIRs. Thank you.
IZUMI OKUTANI: Any other questions?
TOMOHIRO FUJISAKI: My name is Tomohiro Fujisaki from NTT Japan, and thank you very much for the interesting presentation. Could you show me page 8?
SHENG WEI KUO: Page 8?
TOMOHIRO FUJISAKI: Yeah. I want to ask about the graph, do you have any information... sorry, page 8.
SHENG WEI KUO: Yeah.
TOMOHIRO FUJISAKI: Do you have any information about the traffic?
SHENG WEI KUO: What kind of traffic?
TOMOHIRO FUJISAKI: Yeah, maybe the upper graph shows the 20 megabit per?second traffic. And I want to know the content of the traffic? Is this all the controlled traffic? Or is it IPv6 traffic? So, if you have any information about the content of the traffic? Please?
SHENG WEI KUO: We have IPv6 IX and the ISP connects through here. And it connects to there. So we go from this site.
TOMOHIRO FUJISAKI: Yeah.
SHENG WEI KUO: But we don't know what kind. We don't know.
TOMOHIRO FUJISAKI: Yeah, yeah, thank you.
IZUMI OKUTANI: Thank you.
SHENG WEI KUO: Thank you.
JI-YOUNG LEE: Thank you, Sheng ?Wei. It's quite impressive what TWNIC have done for the IPv6 promotion.
WENDY ZHAO: Thank you, Sheng ?Wei. It's quite impressive what the TWNIC have done for the IPv6 promotion. Our next presentation is from KRNIC, is Ji-Young Lee. She will have the KRNIC update.
JI-YOUNG LEE: Hi, my name is Ji-Young, and I'll explain a brief introduction about IPv6 connection service run by KISA. From the previous presentation by Sheng Wei, we have a similar Internet connectivity service by KISA, so maybe it could be a chance to compare and learn something from each other.
In Korea, we call this 6NGIX. It stands for IPv6 Next Generation Internet Exchange. And it is a native IPv6 Internet exchange run by KISA. It provides IPv6 traffic exchange among ISPs and IPv6 connectivity for the public and private organisations.
The history of 6NGIX is like this. In January 2001, Korea was allocated IPv6 address for 6NGIX from APNIC. And in August, we established 6NGIX. And in August 2004, we upgraded the performance of 6NGIX. And in November 2007, KRNIC took over the management right of 6NGIX. Before then, it was run by the other Government agency we call the National Computerisation Agency. And in December 2008, we migrated the network from one local IDC to the other. So when it was first established, it was originally focused on providing the R and D environment for IPv6 based service and devices. But as the IPv4 depletion is getting closer, we are getting more requirements for IPv6 traffic exchange among commercialise ISPs to prepare for the post IPv4 exhaustion.
So, the current status of 6NGIX peering. Now, we are peering with 16 Korean ISPs. Five foreign ISPs and 16 domestic organisations. It provides layer 3 peering service, and you can peer with 6NGIX using leased line or 6to4 tunnelling. And it supports routing protocols like OSPF, BGP, IS-IS and BGP4+. 6NGIX in KRNIC has some special meaning. As an NIR, we allocate IPv6 addresses, so we allocate IPv6 addresses to ISPs. We let them know about 6 NXI - - 6NGIX and recommend them to peer with 6NGIX. So we hope that it leads the local ISPs to peer with the real IPv6 network. And we conduct the 6NGIX link to the IPv6 project with the local ISPs. It supports the continuous traffic exchange with the previously built IPv6 service. And we share the experience and know-how about building and management about the IPv6 network with the network operators. So it is lessons that networks fear about building the IPv6 network. And we hope that create the successful IPv6 network model in Korea. So we hope to create the synergy for the IPv6 in Korea by combining 6NGIX peering service with the previous IPv6 allocation work.
I'll briefly show the 6NGIX project link to the project in Korea. In 2009, we did a project called IPv6 Core Network Building Project. It is very similar to what Sheng ?Wei explained in his presentation, so in 2009, three major ISPs, eight local Government and commercial service providers participated in IPv6 Core network Building Project. So it was to build IPv6 core network as a ISP's production network. And to increase IPv6 readiness on the ISP's backbone network. And to verify stability for building large scale IPv6 production networks. So, we had three groups. So one group built the IPv6 network over MPLS, and two other groups, they used the dual stack on existing IPv4 network. And each group secured more than one path for IPv6 with 6NGIX.
And this is what we do this year. The first one is IPv6-based mobile service project. We are conducting a project about IPv6 over WCDMA. To assign IPv6 addresses to the smartphones, DHCP v6 development for WCDMA mobile equipment is used, and it supports the IPv6 communication function between GGSN equipment and core networks. And it is 6PE over MPLS networks buildings, and interworks with 6NGIX and commercial mobile provider SKT IPv6 WCDMA networks.
And the second one is IPv6-based commercial web service project. It is to build the infrastructure and provide the IPv6 based web service with commercial content providers in Korea. The first project was to aim to help the ISPs in Korea, and the second one is to help the CPUs in Korea. So we provide the IPv4/IPv6 dual stack server hosting, and they will peer with 6NGIX and other IPv6 networks in Korea.
So the summary is, 6NGIX is the only IPv6 IX in Korea, and it has been played a key role in IPv6 deployment projects in Korea. And from this year, more ISPs are connecting with 6NGIX, so in December 2008, we had 26 organisations, and this year, we have 37 organisations peering with 6NGIX. And the remarkable thing is from 2010, commercial IPv6 traffic will be peered in 6NGIX as ISPs plan to launch commercial IPv6 services. So, I'd like to get your attention, so if you're interested in connecting 6NGIX, you can contact us and we can get connected.
You can visit the vsix.kr website and fill in the 6NGIX service peering request form and submit the request to KRNIC, and our staff will contact you. Thank you. Any questions?
TERENCE ZHANG: Terence Zhang from CNNIC. Thank you for the wonderful presentation. I just have a question about peering. Is the peering, is the connection on a dedicated line, or an internal connection?
JI-YOUNG LEE: We support both of them. But so far, very limited number of ISPs are connecting with the lease line, and many of them are using 6to4 tunnelling.
TERENCE ZHANG: I understand that. And how about a cost, if they're peering, is there a cost? Is that a cost by both? Or run by governments, etc?
JI-YOUNG LEE: No, it doesn't.
TERENCE ZHANG? No cost?
JI-YOUNG LEE: No cost. But if you want to lease line, you need to pay for the line, but to connect the peering service, we don't charge for that.
TERENCE ZHANG: OK, so the party themselves, they will have the lease line connected to KRNIC, and then the peering itself is free?
JI-YOUNG LEE: Yes.
TERENCE ZHANG: OK, understand that. Thank you.
SPEAKER FROM THE FLOOR: Thank you, I have one question about peering. Can a foreign ISP connect to your 6NGIX?
JI-YOUNG LEE: Sure, we have five foreign organisations peering with us, and we want to expand our connectivity with many foreign organisations too.
SATYA GUPTA: And for that also, you don't charge anything?
JI-YOUNG LEE: No.
SATYA GUPTA: OK, you just have to bring the bandwidth or the link? The international connectivity, the foreign ISP has to bring to your place?
JI-YOUNG LEE: Yes, but foreign organisations can choose either to have an actual connectivity, or virtual tunnelling.
SATYA GUPTA: OK. And also, your 6NGIX, is it peered with your v4 IX? Do you have a v4 IX in your country?
JI-YOUNG LEE: No.
SATYA GUPTA: You don't have v4 IX?
JI-YOUNG LEE: But 6NGIX is only for native IPv6 connectivity, so if you want both IPv4 and IPv6, maybe you need to find some link for IPv4 connectivity.
SATYA GUPTA: OK, OK, thank you.
IZUMI OKUTANI: Actually, I have a question. I thought it was really interesting. I think it's really interesting how you combine the allocation system and the actual deployment project, and you mentioned that in addition to this peering, providing peering service, you're providing a project for the ISPs and actually also on the application level.
JI-YOUNG LEE: Yes.
IZUMI OKUTANI: I didn't quite get, how exactly do you support or give advice on certain networks? Or what exactly is that that you do for IPv6 over MPLS? Do you simply give advice on how to build networks? Or is it just an example of the kind of networks which are connected to your peering service?
JI-YOUNG LEE: Yes. Those projects were Government-funded, so when we launched this project, we gathered volunteers among the ISPs in Korea and KRNIC also participated in the project, but the building was mainly done by ISPs. But from the experience and learning, we got our experience from running 6NGIX. We connected some experience, so when we allocate the IPv6 address to our members, we can give something more to them, because many of them were afraid of making a connection with IPv6, so it could... running an 6NGIX and a Government project really helped KRNIC.
IZUMI OKUTANI: OK, thank you. Any other questions? Or are there any other NIRs or anybody who would like to share their situation and this is how we run similarly? I recall that TWNIC already presented something similar. Do you have anything similar in China? No? OK.
WENDY ZHAO: So far, the biggest IPv6 network is run by the Government, but I'm not really familiar if they have a singular v6 IX that connects the peering with v6, because we only started on the v6, and you can see the routing of v6 addresses from China, actually, they're not really high. So commercially wise, or even educationally wise, the usage is there.
IZUMI OKUTANI: I see, thank you. And in the case of Japan, just taking my chair hat off. Just sharing the situation in Japan. It is very much commercially driven. So we don't really have a national project to run the IPv6 network, and each individual like private companies or private ISPs, they actually provide the IPv6 service already, so it is not so much an issue. And what we're trying to do is focus more on educating individual ISPs on the technical know-hows, and they might not have the know-hows within the organisation, so we provide seminars and training, hands-on training and things like that to help ISPs who are willing to start the service so that they have the technical ability to do that. That's the situation in Japan. So, thank you very much Ji-Young, for the interesting presentation. Thank you.
APPLAUSE
IZUMI OKUTANI: And the next speaker will be Wendy from CNNIC.
WENDY ZHAO: Hi, good afternoon. Wendy Zhao from CNNIC. Sorry, I'm have a bit of a cold. I'm sorry. It's a nice opportunity for me to give everyone the CNNIC update. My update is a bit different from the other two. It is more from the promotion area, but hopefully you can get something from the presentation. There are some highlights, membership and address allocation status. There is some IPv6 promotion, OPM in 2010, and the plan in 2010 as well.
Those are just the numbers that I will quickly go through. First of all, the membership is 276 by the end of July. The v4 allocation is around 234,622 /24s. Quite large! And IPv6, compared with v4, is low, only 102. And we'll find out most parts of them happened after March of this year for the IPv6 promotion. And the AS numbers is for 2-byte is 276 and for 4-byte is 10. Mainly, it's giving up because we want the ISPs to try to the 4-byte. There are some figures, as you can see from the IPv4, the allocation is steady from year to year, but from IPv6, we can see a dramatic increase in 2010, because the IPv6 promotion, everyone can get their initial IPv6 allocated, if they have IPv4. So it goes up to over 100 in July. But we didn't really see lots of them running on the routing table, but we're looking forward to seeing them all being used. OPM, we hosted our OPM in May this year. There are more than 100 representative members. They were ISPs, ICP and some international organisations. The topic was IPS allocation and policy. Some IPv6 international topics and a little bit of IPv6 training. There was some information that we collect from the OPM, and I would like to share that to the audience, to let you have a little bit more information about what's going on in China for the IPv6. Those figures and information are actually from the operators, so I might not be the person to answer some specific questions over the slides, but if you are quite interested about what they're doing, I can introduce you to the right guy.
First, some information from Chinanet. They ran a CNGI trial. They have the trial network platform consists of the backbone networks, network administration IXPs and seven MAN networks. And the applications including business gateways, business platform and P2Ps. And they came up with some summaries and experiences. They found out that these trials had lack of consideration on the transition of the network and business platforms and EU. And the guidance of the IPv6 business and supporting system. And the industry value, because of scale, is still really small. And the participation of the actual operators, especially ICPs are really low. During the meeting, I had a lot of chats with a gentleman, a senior person, manager from Cisco based in China, and I looked at some of his ideas. No-one really, I can't say no-one, but people looking after each other say, who's going first? I'm not going. But I do agree with his idea that ICP probably could go more first, because they might cost a little bit less money for them to set up dual stack, and transmit their services to the pure IPv6 environment networks. Google have done that, and we have had a chat with the biggest search engine. They are thinking about that. So in China, we might expect to see a few of the ICPs going to IPv6 first. It might be a little bit ahead of the ISPs.
Some information from China Mobile. They hold 3 GPP and IETF courses in 2009. They established the IPv6 study item. In software workshop, they made a proposal on DS-life life, 6rd. In Behave workshop, they made a proposal on PNAT, NAT 64. They ran some new operations in 2009, they made a scale test in the lab of carrying network equipment. They have an IPv6 mobility test. And they have provided a trial of the HDTV service over IPv6, even though I haven't tried it yet. And they have improved the work on the IPv6 standards for mobile terminals. And they have raised the PNAT as IPv6 transition tech.
There's some other topics we have talked about during the OPM, which is the Internet things in China. There's a little bit of an update. Since 1991, Mark Weiser brought up the concept of calculation of general fitness. And people think that it might be the connection of PC is not enough for the human being in the real world. We might connect people to people and things to things and tap to tap. So in 2002, Japan and Korea brought up the concept of the ubiquitous networks. And a year later, the EU have the environment perceiving. In the year 2005, the ITU have provided a report on the Internet of Things. In the year 2008, IBM brought up the concept of Smart Planet. And in 2009, the US have invested billions of dollars for the Smart Grid. Just in 2009, China have launched Perceiving China project, which is basically based on the Internet of Things. So we can see the world changing and the way people are thinking is changing and everything can connect to each other. So how that connects to the IPv6 and what it is related to our meeting? We basically have four essentials on the Internet of Things. First of all, it can be identified by assigning certain tags on to things, for example IP addresses. It can be perceived. Attribute our things and the environment, and also can be located by investigating the information collected by the tags and sensors. And also can be controlled by analysing and calculating the information which has been collected.
That may change the daily lives of our lives.
So, that brings us a little bit something new for the IPv6. The Internet of Things might need a huge amount of IP addresses to locate the sensors and taps, and the Internet of Things need IP addresses it support their mobility. Also, the Internet of Things need IP addresses supporting their security, even though IP addresses is not the only thing we can use for the Internet of Things, but if the sensor and tags, the information they want to share on the wide world of web network or network, the IP addresses is necessary. So IPv6 might be the one it needs.
Some promotion has been done by CNNIC. We can see the 73 /32 allocations is allocated based on the APNIC IPv6 promotion project. And we have a wide IPv6 assignment guidelines, and we do a bit of training on the OPM, help people to assignment develop their IPv6 networks. And the R and D department has established the IPv6 DNS service, which provides IPv6 services for .CN?TLD services. Some in CNNIC are running the ccTLD. And the enabled services. And the support of the CNGI projects. There is some research on the IPv6 management system. We are starting to think of the intelligent IP planning and automatic address delegation. The real time IP information query and IP information authentication. So far, they are just ideas and they are starting to think of the solution for those questions. If anyone is interested in these specific projects, I would really like you to join the project with our group. We have about five people working on this project. And co-lab with Cisco. We have done a little bit research on IPv6 assignment algorithm for optimised allocation and research for DHCP protocol extension for address management. That's some of the things we've done. And there's some plans. We will carry on the OPM training nationwide, bringing a little bit more knowledge to the local ISPs, and especially ICPs and someone just getting into the business and really doesn't know the difference between v6 and v4. And carry on the research on the IPv6 technique. We're going to do a little bit of RMS updates, and for the promotions, CNNIC are going to work with other organisations for the promotion, research and marketing for the IPv6. So that would be it. A little bit of information for everybody. Any questions from the floor?
SATYA GUPTA: Thank you, I'm Satya Gupta. Your presentation, two or three questions up there. One is like you mentioned about the security enhancement, like with IPv6, you can provide some security, especially on the mobile side. How is it done, basically?
WENDY ZHAO: No, I mean, you mean this? IPv6 security? I mean, the IP addresses can help to bring up the security level of the Internet things, because... I'm not really deeply into the Internet of Things, but I know a little bit. If you're using the normal code, that code is not unified worldwide. Like, you only have a network, so you can use this code. And in the other networks, you can use other codes. But for the IP addresses, they are unified. They're unique. So that might bring a little bit of security, and the IP addresses are more secure than the normal code. Might be!
SATYA GUPTA: And on the mobility side, like the Korea presentation also mentioned. The WCD, basically, can it be used only on 3 G or other...
WENDY ZHAO: It can be used on others. The mobility of Internet of Things is not only on the mobile or the Internet wireless. It's also on other things of the Internet of Things. Like, say, there's a project, which even though I'm not involved, but I have a friend doing this. They are working on the medicine area. What they do is have something and the patient swallows it and they get all of the information in the chips. So right now, what they do is the chip will memorise the information and you have to pass out the chip from your body. And then they get the information. But what they're doing right now is trying to get the information from the chip without getting it out. It just digests it normally. That's the project they're working on. So the mobility of Internet of Things is not only for WCMDA or 3 G or whatever.
SATYA GUPTA: Also, can v6 help us to determine the location of a device through this chip? Like normally, it is on the Internet, you can not find out the location of the IP address, normally? That is what I believe. So maybe with v6, can we add some information so that we can find out the location, the geographical location of the device using IPv6?
WENDY ZHAO: Yes, you are not the first one to see if IPv6 has that kind of function. And as I mentioned, part of our group is working on these as well. The real time information query and the intellectual IPv6 plenary. But they're just starting the idea and laying the ground and putting the framework there. But so far, I know that those five people are still scratching their heads. This job can not stand by a click. So I would invite anybody really interested in this area. You can meet together or join projects and at least we've got one more head to scratch, yeah!
SATYA GUPTA: Thank you. And one more question. On the ASN side, you mentioned 2-byte and 4-byte. What was the 4-byte?
WENDY ZHAO: Oh!
SATYA GUPTA: I'm not a technocrat. Maybe it is a simple answer.
WENDY ZHAO: We know that the 2-byte AS numbers are 16 bits, isn't it? And it is running out in a similar way as IPv4, and we still need the AS numbers for the routing and the networks, so the IETF have extended the AS numbers to 4-byte, which is totalling three bits. APNIC has started to allocate the 4-byte AS numbers, but technically, we won't have any problem to route 4-byte AS numbers, but the thing is that we didn't do the global test of the 4-byte AS numbers. So before 2-byte AS numbers ran out, really not a lot of people really wanted to try 4-byte right now, so we gave them out free and let them try it with the AS number. If we have any problems, then we can get the information.
SATYA GUPTA: So basically, that is the next generation of AS numbers?
WENDY ZHAO: You could say that.
SATYA GUPTA: Something like that. But it is your own initiative, or it is an international initiative, 2-byte to 4-byte. Whether it is an international... I think that you can... thank you.
IZUMI OKUTANI: So, this whole thing is actually 4-byte ASN, it's defined and it is decided, it is standardised. So it is not just in the APNIC region, it is a global project. And I think that if you would like to find out more information about it, I believe that Geoff Huston were APNIC has published some technical details on how people can implement using 4-byte ASN. So I think that you can confirm the details there.
LOUISE?FLYNN: Sorry, I'll confirm those details on icons.APNIC.net and there's an AS numbers section that gives you the technical information on AS numbers and the policies, global and otherwise. Louise ?Flynn, APNIC.
DESI VALI: Desi Vali from India. I'm sorry. (Coughs) sorry, I also have the same problem as you. I have two questions. One is, what is OPM?
WENDY ZHAO: Oh, that's our member meeting. Sorry, it's just similar to the APNIC meeting.
DESI VALI: OK, because in India, OPM is normally referred to as Other People's Money!
WENDY ZHAO: OK.
DESI VALI: And the second question is, you said that there are 102 allocations of /32s.
WENDY ZHAO: Yeah.
DESI?VALI: How many are really implemented?
WENDY ZHAO: Before the IPv6 promotion, we have done about 20. For the figure, I can see... before 2010, we had done like 28 allocations for IPv6. And I do believe... not saying that after the IPv6 promotion, they are not, but before the promotion, they had the plan of IPv6 deployment. At least they have tried, but also, to answer your question, and also I have mentioned that in China, the IPv6 really is on trial on the stage, and have been used on the CNGI project, and that project mainly focused on the education. So I wouldn't say a percentage, but only a few of them have been used, have been routed as being used by students. So there aren't really commercial using of the IPv6 for services. But as I say, we are expecting moment movement from ICPs.
When we have the ICPs moved to IPv6, at least we've got some applications, some contents on the IPv6 networks. People might be driven by those contents, going into IPv6 networks. Otherwise, there is no point connecting with IPv6, networks can find nothing there. We're looking for two or three years, giving them some time.
Any questions?
IZUMI OKUTANI: So, your point about the ICP, I believe that's Internet Content Providers. We actually face exactly the same issue. People say that Japan is very advanced for IPv6, but there are actually a couple of ISPs that started commercial IPv6 services. But I think that they're not really making a lot of money out of it. Because users, they don't have the contents based on IPv6, so there's no benefit. And we are having a really hard time convincing the content providers to provide services based on IPv6. And one of the very large medias in Japan, that also provides information by websites, which is like, I don't know, like the 'New York Times' equivalent of Japan, and they've done a project of how much effort would they need to transfer to provide IPv6 contents based on IPv6 connection without affecting the existing IPv4 contents.
And then, initially, they assumed that if they actually simply have a separate URL for IPv4 and IPv6, so whatever that is, like on IPv4, they just say, at IPv6 at a domain name. But they found out that it is not as easy as they initially assumed, because sometimes you have links within the webpage as well. So the conclusion is that they don't really have very strong enough benefits to... they're aware of the issue and want to be prepared, but the cost balance is not really solving the problem. So that's one of the considerations that's being made in Japan. And if there's anything specific in China or maybe in Taiwan or any other countries, then I would be very interested to know.
WENDY ZHAO: Yes, that's the key point in the IPv6 world. Not only for the ICPs. People see no money coming from the IPv6 network services. And until they put lots of money into that, we have, the year before, when they came up to CNNIC to do a focus group, we had a little bit of a story that I can share, if I still have time! A little bit of a story that we can share here with the floor.
We have operators, which are the main operators, who are in this CNGI project. Which, you know, the CNGI project is funded by the Government, and part of it, not all, but the operators with the CNGI project, the finance part of them, of the part of the finance themselves. So I wouldn't say the percentage. I'm not sure, maybe 30-70, or 60-40% or something like that. And because they invested money on the IPv6 network upgrade, they're expecting to get money from it. But for the ICPs, they have no money from the Government at the moment because they're not operators and they don't need to lay the groundwork. So what they do is that with the IPv6 in the future, they will do a little bit of their own research and applications based on the IPv6 network, which Baidu have done that, I'm not advertising for them, but it's a true story, just in case. But what they do is invest money on the IPv6 application and the operators, they want to rent the IPv6 operator's line to test the content application, but they have to pay the money. What the operators said is, "I pay the money for the upgrade of a network, so I have to get money from you." But the ICPs say, "I've got no fun from the Government, but you guys have a fund from the Government, so I shouldn't pay for the lease of the network." So that's kind of the argument, people see no money come out of it. They won't want to get involved. But there is some trick that we have been aware of, or have been hearing with how you convince someone moving to IPv6. Thanks to Cisco, they have done quite a lot of work convincing Google doing dual stack, moving to IPv6. Because they are the biggest search engine of the world, so if anyone multinational business, they are looking forward to getting the same service, or a similar service with Google. Baidu is the same. So the time we go to Baidu saying, look, Google have done the IPv6 networks, would you consider to have dual stack with the IPv6? At least they are thinking of that? And then they will start a group to analyse how much it will cost. What kind of situation they are having and what, in fact, of their current IPv4 services. But at least they are thinking of doing that, so that's kind of a little trick to do the convincing. But eventually, it has to from the inside. No matter if it is ISP or ICP, they have to realise themselves that they can not live on IPv4 forever. Yeah, they're struggling.
IZUMI OKUTANI: If you look at the websites with really big influence, especially Google or Baidu in your case. But the final initiative or decision is based on each organisation, so you feel that as NIRs, we just have to promote and raise awareness.
WENDY ZHAO: Yes. I think that that is what the NIRs are doing to bring up the awareness of IPv6. And also, there's some new area that we might see for the IPv6. We see the current existing services have lots of IPv4, and the flat form networks are way too complicated for people to transfer from IPv6, moving from IPv4 to IPv6. But we're thinking about a new area, like why we talk about Internet of Things, because they're brand new. It's a white paper, you can draw anything on that. So you can set up a service totally based on IPv4, or you can set up a service totally on IPv6, because in those things, it's totally different. They just need the connection of things to things. I won't say that it won't need IPv4, but it could be an area where you can start working on.
And the other area, there is a different situation in China. In other countries, you might have a broadcast vendor, and the Internet vendor, the telecom vendor all together. So one vendor can provide you Internet, telephone and a TV cable. But in China, things are different. We have the operators only provide... we can buy them as Internet and the telecom, so they are the same vendor. But for the broadcaster, they are the other vendors. So the vendor doing the broadcasting won't be getting their business into the Internet and telecom. But recently, we have a new policy where the broadcasting vendor can do Internet business, and they can do telecom business. So for the broadcast person, they are new for the Internet. They're brand new, so they have to set up their own networks.
They start doing everything from the top, so those are the targets that we're targeting to educate them saying, guys, you are the late into this industry and environment, don't do it on the IPv4 base, because it won't last long. Do it on the IPv6 base and that will save you money, save you experience to moving from v4 to v6. So that's all a little bit more about what we're doing recently to bring awareness to the new area that people are not familiar with, and in case they miss this. We see it as an opportunity, a missed opportunity to start over with a brand new or advanced technology.
IZUMI OKUTANI: Interesting. And you know, I think it was very comprehensive picture of what's going on in China in general. So thank you very much.
WENDY ZHAO: OK, thank you.
APPLAUSE
NAVEEN: From India. It's a general question to you and my colleagues around Korea and Japan. Like in India, they have set a deadline for migrating to IPv6, but at the same time, there is no compulsion that both the IPv4 and v6 can run in parallel. So I just wanted to know what is the situation in China? Is there a directive to stop v4 from let's say, 2010, or both can run in parallel forever?
WENDY ZHAO: No, actually, we do have deadlines. That's the situation. We aren't sure what time the IPv6 will be ready, because even though we are into the area we are ISPs and operators and networks. We are not sure if we switch off the IPv4, that the IPv6 will support the world. So that's why we don't have a deadline. Currently, what we are doing is trying to promote, as an NIR, we're trying to promote the IPv6. As operators, they're trying the IPv6 networks. And two, we're fully confident with what's going on on the IPv6 network. I don't think that people will be saying that you have to stop using IPv4, because they're going to parallel with IPv4 for a long time. You can't upgrade millions and millions from IPv4 to IPv6.
IZUMI OKUTANI: So, is there any input from Korea or Taiwan about this question that's like, do you set a target date? Or a deadline to transfer from IPv6 to IPv4, IPv6 to IPv4? I did hear casually will Korea is doing a national project?
JI-YOUNG LEE: Yes, Korea's moving from IPv4 to IPv6. That will be released this September, I think. We have fixed a deadline for IPv4 depletion in 2011, September. That will be KRNIC who allocate IPv4 addresses.
BRAJESH CHANDRA (??): Yeah, thank you. You know, after listening to this, actually, another way of doing IPv6. One is, of course, promotion and education and all of that. And the other is a Government directive, like what they've done for India. Actually, in the absence of the Government directive, what is required for operators to embrace or migrate to IPv6 as a business case? And for a business case, what do you need, sort of what we call a killer application? So maybe, because you've tried with this, especially China, whether you can give some example of a killer application which makes a commercial sense for the operator? Then I think that they would like to go there. Instead of issuing a directive to them that next year, you should be ready with IPv6. You should be switching off IPv4. And maybe, Korea or even Japan, maybe?
IZUMI OKUTANI: I think, I'm not really answering as Japan or JPNIC, but we have been talking about the killer application to IPv6 for the past few years. But we still don't have it today. And now the issue is not so much that we are moving to IPv6, because we have additional benefit, but we'll be running out of IPv4, so we have no choice but to continue and develop the Internet. You know, we have to move to IPv6. That's more the concept that we're trying, the message that we're trying to give within Japan, and I believe that also, APNIC has recently been doing promotion exactly with this message, that the killer application is like a continuation of the Internet. Otherwise, we won't be able... if we don't transfer it to IPv6, then we won be able to continue using the Internet and IPv4 will run out at some point in time. So that's the kind of message that we're trying to give within the Asia-Pacific, I assume, and also within Japan as well.
WENDY ZHAO: I do agree with Izumi. We're always looking for the hero to come out, but it comes every 100 years, not everyday. We're expecting the killer applications, but we don't know when that will happen. But we know that IPv4 will run out within the year, so the biggest emotion for the people moving to IPv6 is because they couldn't get any v4 from anywhere. So from the positive point of view, people will realise that if they move quickly enough, if they take action right now, they might have more advantages than their competitors. But from the point of view is that people won move until they see no other way to solve the problem. That's the situation. And further more, for the deadlines, I would like to put a little bit more information on that.
For the deadlines, we don't see the deadline on the commercial, because you can't say that you have to do this, and you can do that. Because it is commercial-driven. They will do whatever they can get money from. But to learn from the USA experience, the Government, for the promotion stage, have taken the more important roles, so when nobody wanted to invest, the Government should. So the USA have put some deadlines for their networks for the Government in moving to IPv6. It's not a deadline for the use of IPv6, it's deadline for everyone has to get ready for the IPv6. But China has a different view on activities, because the Government networks is a little bit complicated. They are thinking to drive the commercial-driven operators into these situations, they want them to move forward and the regulations set up for the operators to move forward.
But I personally, I haven't seen the plan, but I know that there is a plan for that. I just don't know the days.
NEW SPEAKER: Just to give a clarification. The Government saying that it is IPv6 migration. It is not about migration, it is about being IPv6 ready. It is about the readiness, so the last date which was given, which is two years from now, is about every operator being IPv6 ready. It is not about migrating, migrating. Thank you.
BRAJESH CHANDRA (??): I just wanted to understand the situation. We heard that there was some IPv4 trading development possible within the future. Is there some thought process or some preparedness that some operators won't IPv4 addresses that he can get from the other operators? By way of commercial or by way of agreement?
IZUMI OKUTANI: So your question is, you want to confirm if there is any IPv6 training?
BRAJESH CHANDRA: Trading? One operator has surplus. If one operator has surplus.
IZUMI OKUTANI: Oh, trading. Oh, all right, sorry. I think that that is a little bit of a different issue and it is more related to policy. So interesting idea, but yeah, maybe, it is something that you want to discuss individually and a better discussion for the Policy SIG. And I think that we had really a lot of good discussions and exchanges of information about the situation in each country. Is there anything that you wanted to share about the situation in Korea about the comment earlier?
JI-YOUNG LEE: I think KRNIC has more closed view from the Government, because we have a very close relationship with the Government. The main concern from the Korean Government is the current users are OK, because they've already acquired IPv4 addresses, but the new user, the new services, they need another address. But we ran out of IPv4 addresses, so IPv6, they have to choose IPv6 addresses. At the time, we want to make connectivity between the new service and the old services. For that reason, we want, our Government wants the Korean service providers to get ready for IPv4. Sorry, yes, IPv6.
IZUMI OKUTANI: And, I would just like to introduce about this NIR wiki page on Icon. A lot of the information that we're discussing, we're just sharing this at the SIG. And really, it is a shame that we just discuss it here and that is the end. So we thought that it would be nice if we had a webpage to share this information as a reference. And as you can see, it is totally nothing. It doesn't really say anything. But what we would like to do is to categorise this kind of information, like in terms of the technical projects, for example, what TWNIC and KRNIC has introduced. Or one could be like a Government policy in a country, or maybe some kind of promotion that the NIR is doing. So I would... you know, us, we will draft, like the category of information that we think is useful. And then we will share this on the NIR SIG mailing list. And if you have any suggestions on categories of things that you would like to find out, then your feedback would be very welcome. So we would add this on the webpage and then after that, based on each category. Each of you is very, very welcome to put this information, like India's situation, Korea's situation, Taiwan and China's situation, up on the webpage so that people can share this, and I think that that would be a really good way of information-sharing. So that's what we plan to do in the next few days after the meeting.
And just in terms of procedure, you have to register yourself to icon. You have to have a user name and password to be able to access this webpage. I will also send information about that as well, so please note that you have to register and then please make use of this web page.
So anything that you would like to add, Wendy or Ji-Young. OK, so thank you. So we have one question from Jabber. We have a /32 address range, however we would like a smaller address range and the example to be routable. Is this for the NIR SIG?
NEW SPEAKER: OK, that's fine. It's outside.
IZUMI OKUTANI: I'll just read the complete question. "Address ranges to be routable, is there anything to be address routable." I think that it is more of a technical question and I believe that there is a related policy proposal to be discuss on Thursday, so it would be great if you could give your input or ask questions there. So thank you for the question.
PAVAN DUGGAL: I'm the president of cyber Asia and a practising attorney in the Indian supreme court. My specific question. Is there a location where you have all of the documentation pertaining to policy at NIR at one place? If an outsider - if someone has to come and look at it, what are the practices, processes and provisions there. Is that part of the NIR SIG resource anywhere? Could you point that out, please? Thank you.
IZUMI OKUTANI: That's a good question, but actually, we don't really have that kind of page at the moment as the NIR SIG. And so now, if you would like to find information, you have to ask individual NIRs. What we can do is maybe I'll put another category on the wiki page, and if each of the NIRs are willing to add information about their situation in general, then they can put that on the NIR icon page. We can do that for the future.
PAVAN DUGGAL: Thank you. I think I've not been able to get myself understood. Is there any specific location or a URL or a place where one can find it today? When I'm talking with you this evening?
IZUMI OKUTANI: No.
PAVAN DUGGAL: That's what I wanted. Thank you.
IZUMI OKUTANI: So please talk to the individual NIRs. And we will have a workshop as NIRs after this from 4:00 in the same room. It's actually this NIR SIG is open for everybody, but this workshop is just for APNIC staff and NIRs, so please come back to the meeting room at 4:00 for those people who will be attending the session. So thank you very much all for attending. (End of session)