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APNIC Member Meeting
Minutes
Friday 8 September, Grand Hi-Lai Hotel, Kaohsiung, Taiwan
Meeting commenced: 9:05 am
Chair: Paul Wilson
Contents
- Welcome
- Communication services
- Member services
- Technical services
- Finance and accounting
- Training
- eLearning
- O3
- Eco project
- NRO NC election procedure
- APNIC Executive Council report
- Address Council report
- Policy SIG
- APOPS and Lightning Talks
- NIR SIG
- IPv6 Technical SIG
- Training and education BoF
- [prop-040] Proposal for APNIC non-member annual service fee
- APNIC member fee structure discussions
- APNIC member survey report and launch
- AfriNIC
- ARIN
- LACNIC
- RIPE NCC
- NRO report
- IANA report
- NRO NC election result
- Open microphone discussion
- Closing remarks and next meetings
- Other business
Welcome
- There was a comment that the network service at the meeting venue had been fantastic.
Communication services
- None.
Member services
- None.
Technical services
- None.
Finance and accounting
- None.
Training
- None.
eLearning
- None.
O3
- None.
Eco project
- None.
NRO NC election procedure
- None.
APNIC Executive Council report
- None.
Address Council report
- It was noted that word has just been received that the ICANN Board has just adopted the "Global Policy for Allocation of IPv6 Addresses" that had been developed by the RIR communities.
Policy SIG
- The presenter noted that the proposal did not reach consensus, but that the SIG recommended forming a working group to develop the proposal further.
- The Chair asked for a show of hands to endorse the consensus of the SIG to adopt this proposal. There were no objections, although the Chair noted the apparent lack of response to this process.
- There was a brief review of the policy development process and encouragement for all to participate.
- The Chair noted consensus to adopt the policy. The chair reported that, pending approval during the final comment period on the mailing list and subsequent EC endorsement, the proposal would be implemented by the APNIC Secretariat.
- The Chair asked for a show of hands to endorse the consensus of the SIG to adopt this proposal. There were no objections.
- The Chair noted consensus to adopt the policy. The chair reported that, pending approval during the final comment period on the mailing list and subsequent EC endorsement, the proposal would be implemented by the APNIC Secretariat.
- The Chair asked for a show of hands to endorse the consensus of the SIG to adopt this proposal.
- There was a suggestion to adopt an expiration or review date for this proposal after three years, in order to study the routing table effects.
- It was noted that this does not need to be considered as a modification to the proposal, as review can happen at any time in the policy development process.
- The Chair noted consensus to adopt the policy. The chair reported that, pending approval during the final comment period on the mailing list and subsequent EC endorsement, the proposal would be implemented by the APNIC Secretariat.
- The Chair asked for a show of hands to endorse the consensus of the SIG to adopt this proposal. There were no objections.
- The Chair noted consensus to adopt the policy. The chair reported that, pending approval during the final comment period on the mailing list and subsequent EC endorsement, the proposal would be implemented by the APNIC Secretariat.
- The Chair asked for a show of hands to endorse the consensus of the SIG to adopt this proposal. There were no objections.
- The Chair noted consensus to adopt the policy. The chair reported that, pending approval during the final comment period on the mailing list and subsequent EC endorsement, the proposal would be implemented by the APNIC Secretariat.
- None.
APOPS and Lightning Talks
- The Chair noted that the APOPS and Lightning Talks have been a resounding success and he encouraged the current programming committee to continue refining the new meeting format.
NIR SIG
- The Chair noted that there would be a special session after lunch to discuss the fee issues in details.
IPv6 technical SIG
- None.
Training and education BoF
- None.
[prop-040] Proposal for APNIC non-member annual service fee
- It was clarified that there would be no new IP allocations to non-members. It was suggested that there have been concerns in the past that some types of organisations may not be able to enter membership agreements. It was clarified that most non-member service demand is for ASNs and this would continue to be delivered. There is currently a great deal of inconsistency between member and non-member fees.
- It was noted that there is precedent for fee-related proposals to come directly to the AMM rather than the Policy SIG, provided they are still within the timeframe of the policy development process.
- It was clarified that the proposed fees will apply to historical resource holders who come to APNIC for service.
- It was also noted that APNIC already has procedures in place for reclaiming unused historical address space.
- It was clarified that proposed fees would be annual.
- The acting chair asked for a show of hands for this proposal.
- There was a comment that there is a need for more exposure and discussion rather than a decision. There was a show of hands in support of this suggestion.
- A question was raised about joining this discussion with similar discussions at IDNIC.
action amm-22-001: Secretariat to refer prop-040 Proposal for non-member annual service fee to APNIC fees working group mailing list for further discussion.
APNIC member fee structure discussions
- There was some feedback reported from the NIR SIG. It was suggested that the membership needs more time to consider the proposal and understand it. It was suggested that the AMM is not the best forum for discussing it. It was also suggested that it would be useful to have more clear milestones for the proposal.
- It was suggested that more detailed discussion in a working group would be more appropriate.
- It was argued that the meeting of the membership is indeed the best place to discuss membership fees.
- It was suggested to have an initial discussion phase, discussion in a policy SIG, then discussion in the AMM.
- There was a suggestion for APNIC to provide comparative data from other regions. It was suggested that the charts presented should also include service costs for comparison. It was also suggested that the absolute voting rights of NIRs may be low, but their effective votes are higher because of proxy voting.
- There was concern expressed about the possibility for an organisation to gain a disproportionate number of votes.
- It was suggested that the role of the NIRs is not clear in this proposal.
- It was suggested that the working group should not only discuss fees, but should also discuss activities and budget.
- There was a statement supporting the need to raise APNIC revenue, but noting that it is not clear why the raise needs to be 10-15 percent, as proposed.
- It was noted that in India, some ISPs are finding it hard to afford APNIC membership, so there is growing interest in setting up an NIR.
- It was noted that comparing the five RIRs financial reports reveals quite similar budgets. It was asked why only APNIC is considering changing its fee structure. It was explained in reply that only APNIC has NIRs, which is the main difference.
- It was explained that RIPE NCC has a fee structure discussion every year, which starts with the NCC presenting a draft activity plan and draft budget. The Executive Board, which represents the members, can approve the plan and budget, but then the members approve a charging scheme. The scheme has not changed much over time. The scheme considers the allocations held by members and the relative dates of the allocations. There was one large increase in fees several years ago, but generally the fees go down.
- There was a question from the chat service about how APNIC would consider providing support by way of discounts for less developed countries.
- It was noted that APNIC has always had NIRs, so it is not clear why APNIC needs to change the fee structure now. It was explained that there is a need for general fee structure reform that goes beyond a need for revenue increases.
- The acting chair called for volunteers to chair the fee discussion working group.
- Links to the working group mailing lists were displayed.
- Randy Bush and Ming-Cheng Liang volunteered to chair the working group.
- It was suggested that the chair of the mailing list should be someone who has been contributing to it.
action amm-22-002: APNIC fees working group Chairs to facilitate further discussion on the APNIC fees working group mailing list.
APNIC member survey report and launch
- None.
AfriNIC
- None.
ARIN
- None.
LACNIC
- None.
RIPE NCC
- None.
NRO report
- None.
IANA report
- None.
NRO NC election result
- None.
Open microphone discussion
- None.
Closing remarks and next meetings
- None.
Other business
- None.
Paul Wilson, APNIC
The Chair opened the APNIC Member Meeting and explained the agenda. He thanked the sponsors: Gold sponsors TWNIC and the Kaohsiung City Government, and Silver Sponsors JPNIC and KRNIC of NIDA. The Chair then invited suggestions for any additions to the agenda.
Questions and discussion
APNIC services reports
Gerard Ross, APNIC
This presentation summarised the activities of the Communications area in APNIC, including Events, Training, Outreach, and Documentation.
Questions and discussion
Son Tran, APNIC
This presentation reported the activities of the Member Services department, including new team members and languages, new chat and VoIP services, and improved work processes. The presentation also reported statistics on resources distributed by APNIC in the first half of 2006, and noted the progress of the debogon project.
Questions and discussion
Sanjaya, APNIC
This presentation reported the activities of the Technical Services department, noting the Resource Certification project, updates to the resources management system, reverse DNS improvements, VoIP deployment, O3, co-location upgrades, and the deprecation of ip6.int. The speaker also described, and apologised for, several issues with APNIC's reverse DNS services over the past year, and concluded with the Technical Services department's priorities for the coming year.
Questions and discussion
Irene Chan, APNIC
This presentation reported the activities of the Finance team over the past year, including the implementation of an online payment system, automated billing reminders and email invoices. The speaker also noted the continued membership growth over the past year. She explained that APNIC is operating under budget, although the 2006 budget originally forecast a slight deficit.
Questions and discussion
Cecil Goldstein, APNIC
This presentation reported the Training department activities, including the appointment of a new training manager, and a part-time trainer. The speaker also noted the development of training webcasts, eLearning, the development of new training material, and the development of courses for internal staff. The speaker noted the continuing improvement of training programs, integrating all facets of the training department and collaborating with the AP community to provide better services.
Questions and discussion
New services and activities
Sall'ee Ryman, APNIC
This presentation described the development of new eLearning systems at APNIC, including the launch of the first APNIC eLearning modules, which are intended to increase the reach of APNIC's training and education to more people across the region.
Questions and discussion
George Michaelson, APNIC
The presenter described and demonstrated the O3 software that is being deployed at APNIC to manipulate and report data held by APNIC. The software is already in use in LACNIC and provides a very powerful and flexible web-based interface for registry and other data. O3 will be deployed on the APNIC web site shortly. The presenter thanked LACNIC and the O3 developers for their help in setting up this software for APNIC's needs.
The presenter reported that APNIC is likely to have O3 fully deployed and ready by the end of 2006.
Questions and discussion
Nurani Nimpuno, APNIC
The presenter described an internal, staff-driven project at the APNIC Secretariat to reduce APNIC's ecological footprint and implement more environmentally sustainable work practices. The project is looking at travel, energy efficiency, recycling, and wastage.
Questions and discussion
Paul Wilson, APNIC
The Chair explained the EC election procedure. There is one vacant seat on the NC.
The Chair noted the MyAPNIC online voting and paper ballot procedures that apply to this election. He explained how the ballot papers are to be validly completed, noted the voting entitlements, and stressed the deadline for return of ballots.
The Chair then called on the nominees to address the meeting.
Hyun-Joon Kwon addressed the meeting in person, describing his background, experience, and willingness to serve.
Imtiaz Ahmed, Rishi Chawla, and Hakikur Rahman were not present.
The Chair noted that he would later call on volunteers to help scrutinise the election.
Questions and discussion
[Break 10:30 - 11:00 am]
Other reports
Akinori Maemura, JPNIC
This report summarised the role and recent activities of the APNIC EC. The presenter introduced the members of the Executive Council.
Questions and discussion
The AMM Chair presented a gift to the presenter.
Kenny Huang, AsiaInfra International
The presenter described the role and composition and recent activities of the ASO Address Council.
Questions and discussion
SIG, APOPS and BoF reports
The Chair described the role of the AMM in reviewing the reports and recommendations arising from the SIGs.
Kenny Huang, AsiaInfra International
The presenter reviewed the content and results of the Policy SIG held at this meeting, as well as recent discussions on the Policy SIG mailing list.
The presenter described the progress of the active policy proposals and action items.
[prop-037] Deprecation of email updates for APNIC Registry and whois data
[prop-038] Modified lame DNS policy proposal
[prop-039] A proposal to improve reachability of new IANA blocks
[prop-035] IPv6 portable assignment for multihoming
[prop-033] End site assignment policy for IPv6
[prop-041] IPv6 assignment size to critical infrastructure
Questions and discussion
Philip Smith, Cisco
The presenter reviewed the history, content, and results of the APOPS session held at this meeting, as well as recent discussions on the APOPS SIG mailing list. The APOPS session was given a much higher profile role in this meeting than in previous meetings, as part of the new program format in use.
The presenter also discussed the Lightning Talks session, which is a new feature being tried in the APNIC meeting program, to allow short, informal presentations on interesting topics that might not have been ready for submission in the main programme.
Questions and discussion
The AMM Chair presented a gift to the presenter.
Izumi Okutani, JPNIC
The presenter reviewed the content and results of the NIR SIG held at this meeting, as well as recent discussions on the NIR SIG mailing list. The major topic of discussion in this SIG was a discussion paper from the Secretariat about reforming the APNIC fee structure. There were also operational updates from some of the NIRs.
The presenter also noted that the SIG decided that it would be worthwhile to call for a volunteer from the community to chair a working group on the fees.
Questions and discussion
The AMM Chair presented a gift to the presenter.
Kazu Yamamoto, IIJ
The presenter reviewed the content and results of the IPv6 SIG held at this meeting, as well as recent discussions on the IPv6 SIG mailing list.
Questions and discussion
The AMM Chair presented a gift to the presenter.
Cecil Goldstein, APNIC
The presenter reviewed the content and results of the Training and Education BoF, which was held at this meeting in order to increase awareness of APNIC's training program and eLearning developments and to solicit as much community feedback as possible. It was noted that the scheduling of the BoF did affect the level of participation.
Questions and discussion
The AMM Chair presented a gift to the presenter.
The Chair reminder the meeting that voting in the NC election will close at 2:00pm and called for volunteers to scrutinise the election.
[Break 12:30 - 2:00pm]
APNIC fee structure discussion
The Chair of the EC, Akinori Maemura, chaired this session.
Save Vocea, APNIC
This presentation proposed a new, more consistent and manageable service fee schedule for non-member account holders of APNIC. It was noted that this proposal has no direct impact on APNIC members, who receive services according to the APNIC Membership fee schedule.
Questions and discussion
Action items
Paul Wilson, APNIC
This presentation summarised the current discussions surrounding the possible replacement of the APNIC fee structure. This was a refinement and extension of a presentation that was made at APNIC 21 and was also presented in this form at the NIR SIG of this meeting. Full details are available in the presentation. The presenter stressed that this is put forward for discussion, but is not yet a formal proposal.
The history of the APNIC fee structure was reviewed. There was an analysis of APNIC's revenues and expenditures over time, including an explanation of the effect of exchange rates. It was noted that 2006 is the first time APNIC has actually budgeted for a loss, although it may not actually occur.
APNIC has been continuously increasing service levels in recent years. It has also become necessarily involved in many other activities that did not apply in the past. This has led to a greater need for expenditure.
There was a discussion of the nature of the one-off per-address fee which applies to NIRs and the lack of voting entitlements of NIR members.
There was a comparison of the respective costs faced by small and large members. To illustrate the lack of fairness in the current fee structure, it was noted that extra large members pay about 3 percent of the fees but hold more than 60 percent of the total address space. It was also note that voting is disproportionate, with NIRs holding relatively few votes and their members holding none at all.
The principles for a suitable fee structure were discussed. These are overall revenue maintenance, revenue adjustment, annual fee calculation, consistency between NIR and regular member fees, fairness, and equitable voting rights.
The presenter reviewed the feedback that has been received on these issues since APNIC 21. There has been sufficient interest in these issues to continue pursuing the reform.
The presenter demonstrated how these principles could be modelled into a realistic new fee structure for APNIC. The parameters for the current model are very similar to those presented at APNIC 21. There was a detailed presentation of a possible fee structure with 11 tiers and an analysis of the impact of such a structure on the current APNIC membership. In this model, the overall impact for APNIC would be an increase of 18 percent. Normally members would see a two percent rise in fees, while NIRs would see a 112 percent increase.
The presenter discussed the other feedback that has been received since the current discussion paper was published.
One new suggestion that has arisen is to use a continuous formula rather than fixed tiers. This could be easily calculated using MyAPNIC. The advantage of this method is that a small increase in address holding would not result in a significant increase in fees, which would be the case in the tiered structure.
There was a discussion of allowing discounts for developing countries, with reference made to the scales used by some external organisations. It was noted that providing such discounts would not have a significant impact on the overall revenue model.
Questions and discussion
Action items
[Break 3:35 - 4:00pm]
Paul Wilson, APNIC
This presentation explained the plan to conduct a new member survey, following the previous surveys that have been conducted for APNIC by Dr John Earls of KPMG. It is intended to complete the survey in time for a full report to be presented at APNIC 23. Full details are provided in the presentation.
Questions and discussion
Frank Nnebe, AfriNIC
This presentation summarised the recent activities, policy developments, and resource status of AfriNIC. Full details are provided in the presentation.
Questions and discussion
RIR reports
Richard Jimmerson, ARIN
This presentation summarised the recent activities, policy developments, and resource status of ARIN. Full details are provided in the presentation.
Questions and discussion
Richard Jimmerson, ARIN on behalf of LACNIC
This presentation summarised the recent activities, policy developments, and resource status of LACNIC. Full details are provided in the presentation.
Questions and discussion
Axel Pawlik, RIPE NCC
This presentation summarised the recent activities, policy developments, and resource status of RIPE NCC. Full details are provided in the presentation.
Questions and discussion
Axel Pawlik, RIPE NCC
This presentation summarised the current status, composition, activities and priorities of the NRO, with an emphasis on its role in global Internet governance discussions. Full details are provided in the presentation.
Questions and discussion
The Chair presented gifts to the RIR representatives.
Barbara Roseman, IANA
This presentation reported on IANA's current activities, service levels, and resource status. Full details are provided in the presentation.
Questions and discussion
The Chair presented a gift to the IANA representative.
Paul Wilson, APNIC
The scrutineer reported that the successful candidate was Hyun-Joon Kwon.
The Chair thanked the scrutineers and congratulated the successful candidate.
Questions and discussion
The Chair noted that this meeting was well-attended and full of interesting content. He gave a detailed breakdown of the meeting attendees, noting that this information is very useful for planning meetings.
Feedback forms have been collected at the AMM. There was a prize draw from the feedback forms submitted. The winner was Akai-san.
There was also another prize draw from visitors to the eLearning corner. The winner was a newcomer, Timothy from Fiji.
The Chair announced details of upcoming APNIC meetings.
APNIC 23 will be held in Bali, Indonesia, from 26 February - 2 March 2007, in conjunction with APRICOT 2007.
APNIC 24 will be held in New Delhi, India, hosted by ISPAI, from 3-7 September 2007, in conjunction with SANOG 10. A representative from ISPAI addressed the meeting, thanking APNIC and welcoming all participants to visit New Delhi for APNIC 24. He also played a short video introducing the location.
APNIC 25 will be held in Taipei, Taiwan, from 25-28 February 2008, in conjunction with APRICOT 2008.
The Chair noted that APNIC 25 will again be hosted by TWNIC, who have done an excellent job in hosting this meeting.
The Chair called for proposals to host APNIC 26.
The Chair thanked the meeting sponsors, Gold sponsors TWNIC and the Kaohsiung City Government, and Silver Sponsors JPNIC and KRNIC of NIDA. He also presented certificates of appreciation for the support.
The Chair thanked all the other sponsors who have supported this meeting.
He thanked the speakers, chairs, guest tutors, and stenocaptioners.
Questions and discussion
Meeting closed: 5:15 pm
Minuted by: Gerard Ross
Open action items
action amm-22-001: Secretariat to refer prop-040 proposal for non-member annual service fee to APNIC fees working group mailing list for further discussion.
action amm-22-002: APNIC fees working group Chairs to facilitate further discussion on the APNIC fees working group mailing list.
