DISCLAIMER:

                    While every effort is made to capture a live speaker's

                    words, it is possible at times that the transcript

                    contains some errors or mistranslations.  APNIC and

                    Lloyd Michaux apologises for any inconvenience, but

                    accepts no liability for any event or action resulting

                    from the transcripts.

                                       **********



               <<Adam Gosling (APNIC):  Good afternoon, everybody.

                    I hope you enjoyed your lunch.  My name's Adam

                    Gosling, from APNIC.  This is a session IP-based

                    geolocation issues.

                        If possible I'd like to run this session in the

                    following way.  I have three speakers.  I'd like

                    them to come to the lectern and present, but can we

                    leave questions until the end and then we'll kind of

                    run it as a bit of an informal panel.  This session

                    is really about getting input from the community and

                    it's a discussion about the issue, it's not only

                    about the presentations.  The presentations are

                    meant to serve as an introduction to the topic that

                    we're going to talk about.

                        So to begin with I'd like to ask Anna to come

                    up and present IPv4 transfers in 2005 stats and

                    observations.

               <<Anna Mulingbayan (APNIC):  Good afternoon, everyone.

                    My name is Anna.  I'm from APNIC.  This afternoon I





                                     1





                    will be presenting about IPv4 transfers in 2015 and

                    in the first part of my presentation I will be

                    covering about statistics.  It's always a challenge

                    to present in the afternoon especially after lunch,

                    so I hope you find it interesting enough.

                        Then later on, I will be giving you some

                    observations from these stats.

                        To begin with, we would like to show you the

                    data of the merger and acquisition transfers that

                    we've done in APNIC from the last five years.  As

                    you can see from the graph, we have a flat growth in

                    terms of the number of M&A transfers that we've

                    done.

                        Maybe in 2012 there's a bit of growth, with

                    total of 81, but if you look at 2015 we basically

                    had the same number of 46 transfers as compared to

                    2011.

                        The next slide shows the total number of market

                    transfers that we have processed in MyAPNIC, which

                    is very different, because as you can see from the

                    graph, we have a steady growth of market transfers

                    happening in the region.

                        As you can see from the last three years, from

                    2013 to 2015 there's been a steady growth of market

                    transfers happening.  And in fact if we compare the





                                     2





                    total number of transfers in 2015 we have 180, which

                    is about five times more compared to what we've

                    processed in 2011.

                        In this slide we compare the number of

                    transfers between M&A and market, and we can see

                    here that the trending growth is happening basically

                    for market transfers.  If we look at 2015 alone we

                    can see that the number of market transfers is four

                    times more compared to M&A.

                        Again, if we compare that at the start of 2011

                    when the market transfers started kicking off, we

                    had less market transfers compared to M&A.

                        Let's take a closer look at these market

                    transfers happening within the region.  If we count

                    by the number of actual transactions between APNIC

                    members, in 2015 we have a total of 142.

                        So that's like four times larger compared to

                    2011 when we started the policy.

                        If we look at the actual number of IP addresses

                    that's been transferred between APNIC accounts, we

                    have a total of around 10 million IP addresses.  So

                    that's around /9.

                        This is the total number.

                        You can see here, in 2014 and 2015, we do have

                    a large number of IPv4 addresses that has been





                                     3





                    transferred between APNIC to market transfer.  So in

                    2014 we have about 2.7 million IP addresses and in

                    2015 we have about 2.5 million IP addresses.

                        For Inter-RIR market transfers, in the last

                    four years we do get a bit of number of transfers

                    happening from other RIRs.  As you can see here, in

                    2014 and 2015 we have 36 and 38 Inter-RIR transfers

                    respectively.

                        I have to say that all these transfers are

                    between ARIN and APNIC.  We've just started a policy

                    between RIPE NCC and APNIC, but from 2015 we haven't

                    completed or approved any transfers between RIPE NCC

                    and APNIC.  So basically all this data is coming

                    from ARIN and APNIC region.

                        To make it more interesting, we would like to

                    show you the actual number of IP addresses that have

                    been transferred from ARIN region to APNIC.  From

                    the last four years we have a total of 5.4 million

                    IP addresses that have been transferred from ARIN

                    region to APNIC.

                        As you can see here, there's a large number of

                    transfers -- the transfers that happened in 2015,

                    we've done around 3.7 million IP address transfers

                    from ARIN to APNIC.

                        The next slide shows the transfer that happened





                                     4





                    from APNIC to ARIN region.  And from the last four

                    years we've only seen this activity happening in

                    2015.  So from last year we have made a total of

                    three transfers from ARIN to APNIC, so we call this

                    outgoing transfers.  And it is a total of around

                    10,000 IP addresses.

                        Perhaps we can note that last year ARIN has

                    reached their exhaustion stage in terms of IPv4

                    supply.  I'm not sure if it's related to it, but

                    from this graph we can show that the transfers

                    started from last year when they reached exhaustion.

                        Moving to the observations that we have from

                    these transfers that we received from APNIC,

                    definitely based on the data that I have given we

                    have been receiving more and more market transfers.

                    We can see that from just last year we have a total

                    of 180.

                        Another observation is the increased number of

                    transfers happening from the final 103/8, and some

                    of these transfers are even delegated less than

                    a year.

                        Another observation is the Inter-RIR transfers

                    happening within the same organisation.  Basically

                    these are large companies or organisations who have

                    presence both in ARIN and APNIC region and sometimes





                                     5





                    they do transfer some of their resources to some

                    part of their companies that is located in another

                    part of the world.

                        Then the last observation is transfer from

                    multiple accounts, so basically these are few

                    numbers of APNIC accounts transferring their IP

                    addresses to the same organisation.  I'll explain

                    more details about that in my next few slides.

                        This graph shows the number of market transfers

                    happening from the final /8.  As you can see here,

                    we have quite a bit in 2015, with a total of 67.

                        Let me tell you some of the examples of these

                    transfers.  I'm just trying to recall the requests

                    that I have encountered myself.  The first one I

                    would say would be those small companies who come to

                    APNIC, they can justify a small amount of IP address

                    to obtain IP address from APNIC, and since they

                    can't get IP address from their upstream provider

                    they would go directly to us.  But then at some

                    point they could not sustain the business, so after

                    they close their membership with us instead of

                    returning the IP address to APNIC they would just

                    sell and transfer their IP address to another

                    organisation.

                        So that's one type of case.





                                     6





                        Another case would be for those companies who

                    sign up for membership through membership referral.

                    So they would like their upstream provider to apply

                    membership on their behalf and get IP address

                    because, again, they can't get the IP address from

                    their upstream provider.

                        But then at a certain point they are more

                    comfortable having their upstream provider managing

                    the IP address for them, so they would transfer

                    their IP address to the upstream accounts, but they

                    would remain using those IP addresses.

                        That's the second case.

                        The third case is for those large companies who

                    have many child companies and they have their own

                    computer registration, they have their own network.

                    But at some point they would like to consolidate all

                    their resources on their one account.

                        In those type of cases they have two options.

                    Either they can go merger acquisition or go market

                    transfer.

                        So those are the three types of cases.

                        This graph shows the delegations that happened

                    within -- well, less than a year.  As you can see

                    from this graph, we have many of these activities

                    happening in 2012, and from 2013 to 2015 we have





                                     7





                    less of those cases.

                        I would say this is due to the change of

                    policy, because in 2012 we've started a needs-based

                    policy for transfer, and before that we have seen a

                    lot of movements of transfers happening.  So after

                    that policy has been implemented we see less and

                    less of transfers happening, even less than a year

                    of getting the IP address from the final 103/8.

                        This one I mentioned about Inter-RIR transfer

                    happening within the same organisation.  Again,

                    these are the big companies who have, say for

                    example a company in the US and say for example they

                    do have a branch in Singapore, what they do is they

                    transfer part of their IP addresses to their office

                    in Singapore, because, well, obviously they probably

                    have more IP address in the US so they would like to

                    help their company in Singapore to be able to

                    establish their network.

                        So they transfer some part of their IP address

                    in the US to sustain their network in the APNIC

                    region.  These are the cases where say for example

                    company A has a company in Asia, they would transfer

                    part of their resources, or IP addresses in the

                    Asian region.

                        So in 2014 and 2015 we've seen a few of these





                                     8





                    cases happening.  2014 we have five companies who

                    have done this kind of transfer, and in 2015 we had

                    a total of four.

                        That's it for my presentation.  We can take

                    questions later, right?

               <<Adam Gosling (APNIC):  Yes, if that's okay with

                    everyone.  Thank you very much, Anna.

               APPLAUSE

               <<Adam Gosling (APNIC):  Vivek's going to scale the

                    difficult side, the steep ascent.

               <<Vivek Nigam (APNIC):  Good afternoon again, Vivek from

                    APNIC, and I would like to talk about IP-based

                    geolocation and Whois database.

                        Some of the areas I want to talk about include

                    the actual complaints we get from our members, what

                    geographical attributes are available in Whois, what

                    you need to know about these attributes and the

                    "geohelp" document we plan to work on to try and

                    better understand what the problem is.

                        We all know that geolocation providers use

                    different sources to gather IP information.  They

                    look at routing systems, how IPs are routed, mobile

                    GPS devices, they do data mining and possibly some

                    of them also look at the registry data, so the data

                    APNIC publishes.





                                     9





                        There has been an increase in the number of

                    geolocation complaints we get.  We are not sure why

                    this is happening.  One possible reason could be

                    that, as Anna explained, there are a lot of

                    transfers we process.  A lot of resources we

                    delegate also come from recycled address pool, which

                    means other organisations have used them in the past

                    and if any geolocation provider is looking at the

                    APNIC data, they might not be looking at the right

                    data, or possibly they're not checking it as often

                    as they should.  We don't know.

                        In the next few slides I want to show you some

                    of the actual complaints we have got from our

                    members.  The most common ones we get are about

                    incorrect IP geolocation.

                        In this example the member is located in

                    Philippines and when they try to download content

                    from CDNs, or go to websites like speedtest.net,

                    they are getting picked as being in Adelaide in

                    Australia.  So they want our help to fix this

                    problem.

                        Then we get complaints about the accuracy of

                    geolocation.  In this example the geolocation

                    information at the country level is correct, but the

                    information at the more specific city or state level





                                     10





                    is incorrect and again, they need our help.

                        Then we have no geolocation information.  So in

                    this case our members said when they accessed Google

                    Play store they can't locate any location

                    information about the IP.  What can be done?

                        Then we also get complaints about filtering

                    based on IP geolocation.  This was a request we only

                    received last week, where the member's located in

                    New Zealand, they're routing their IPs in US and

                    even though MaxMind and other geolocation providers

                    pick it up as US, the e-mails are getting filters

                    because it's getting picked as being from

                    New Zealand.

                        This is the actual bounce message they're

                    getting, "Mailbox unavailable, sorry we do not

                    accept e-mails from New Zealand."  So it appears

                    there are some people who do email filtering based

                    on IP geolocation.

                        As you can imagine, all these different types

                    of geolocation issues, they lead to a lot of

                    customer complaints.  So this is a little more

                    (inaudible) example where a member had two pools of

                    IPs, one of them had geolocation issues, the other

                    one was fine.  They were having to ask their

                    customers to reboot and just hope they get an IP





                                     11





                    from the clean block which is not a good solution.

                    As you can imagine, they were not happy and they

                    again needed our help to fix this problem.

                        Now that you hopefully have some understanding

                    of the type of complaints we get, let's have a look

                    at what geographical attributes are there in the

                    Whois.

                        Some of these attributes of interest include

                    the country attribute, which has the two-letter

                    country code, we have the geoloc attribute which has

                    some location, latitude/longitude coordinates, and a

                    description attribute, where people can put a

                    physical address or a PO Box address.

                        The conventions on how these attributes should

                    be used may not be clear.  For APNIC delegations the

                    objects have consistent meaning.  But for other

                    delegations, like the ones on members' registry for

                    their customers through customer assignments, there

                    are no enforcements on what they should mean.  So

                    for example, a member could register a customer

                    assignment to show who their customers are, or they

                    could also register a customer assignment to show

                    where their network is located.  It's entirely up to

                    the member.

                        This is an example of an APNIC delegation, so





                                     12





                    as you can see in the description attribute we

                    mention the organisation who has received this, the

                    address where this organisation is registered, as

                    well as the country where this organisation is

                    registered.  So Australia in this case.

                        We also maintain the stats file which has

                    similar data.  It says what the resource is, when it

                    was delegated, and the country where it was

                    delegated.

                        So what do you need to know about all these

                    attributes?  Well, for APNIC delegations, so the

                    portable blocks, we record the economy where your

                    organisation is registered, so we only use the

                    country attribute to show which country your

                    organisation is registered in.  We don't put any

                    geoloc details, because we are not trying to give

                    any hints where your network is deployed.

                        Then this same data is exported to a public

                    stats file.

                        For member delegations, this is where there's

                    some ambiguity.  They can register customer

                    assignments to indicate where the network is located

                    and they might do this by using the country

                    attributes or the geoloc attributes.

                        Now, it is important to note here that we do





                                     13





                    not enforce any conventions or check for correctness

                    of this data.  So these attributes, therefore, they

                    may not be reliable, or they could even be

                    deliberately misleading.

                        Let me show you a case study which shows the

                    effects on geo-IP location after we've processed an

                    address transfer.

                        So in this example, in June last year we did a

                    resource transfer from an Australian member to a

                    New Zealand member.  This was done under the merger

                    acquisition policy, so once it was complete we

                    updated all the APNIC delegation to reflect now the

                    organisation is in New Zealand.  Everything was fine

                    for a few months, but after that the member came

                    back and started complaining about geolocation

                    issues.  They are saying they all pointing to

                    New Zealand now, and even though the network is

                    still in Australia, the customers are still in

                    Australia, this is causing problems.

                        So at this stage we gave the usual support we

                    give them, we asked them to register customer

                    assignments, try geoloc coordinates, but none of

                    that made any difference.  Later on we identified in

                    this case the geolocation provider was only looking

                    at the APNIC delegation, and not what the customer





                                     14





                    was registering.

                        So through this case study and other similar

                    ones, we have observed that there are some

                    confusions about what registry data should be used

                    for geolocation and how frequently it is being used.

                    There's also some confusion about the impact of this

                    geoloc attribute; is it widely used?  The last time

                    I checked only about 130 of our 5,000-plus members

                    have used the geoloc attribute and we don't know for

                    sure if any geolocation providers are even looking

                    at this data.

                        And APNIC continues to get asked for a lot of

                    advice and help on these types of geolocation

                    problems.

                        To get a better understanding of what the

                    problem is, we are planning to do some work on a

                    geohelp document, so we want to do some research on

                    how IP addressed-based geolocation is gathered and

                    consumed, how the APNIC data is used in building

                    geolocation, and the objective of this document is

                    to help us provide a clear guide to those who need

                    help, as well as for us to provide better support to

                    our members.

                        To conclude this presentation there are some

                    questions I have for all of you to consider.





                                     15





                    Questions like: what do you think is APNIC's

                    responsibility?  So the data we generate through

                    APNIC delegations, is that sufficient, or is there

                    something more we should do?  And likewise, what do

                    you think is the member's responsibility, the data

                    they generate through customer assignments geoloc,

                    is that sufficient or should they be doing something

                    different?  What should be enforced?  What should be

                    left optional.

                        What's next?  Well, I don't think I know what's

                    next, that really depends on what all of you think,

                    all of us should be doing to try and address some of

                    these issues.

                        That's all I have.

               <<Adam Gosling (APNIC):  Thank you, Vivek.

               APPLAUSE

               <<Adam Gosling (APNIC):  That's a bit of background

                    information from our experience as a staff at APNIC.

                        Matthew may be known to some of you.  I don't

                    have a bio for him, he can perhaps explain a little

                    bit of his background.  He's going to present some

                    information about the New Zealand survey into what

                    end users want from geolocation.

               <<Matthew Jackson (Bypass Network Services):  Hi,

                    everybody.  First of all, I just want to say thanks





                                     16





                    to the guys at APNIC for saying come along and have

                    a chat about this.  I'm up here because of some

                    conversations that were happening over lunch

                    yesterday, and also to anybody on New Zealand

                    Internet Society that's in the room, you know,

                    played a big role in some of the debate that was

                    happening last year.

                        I'll just see how we work this.  I'm going to

                    start off by playing a video, then I'll give you a

                    little bit about my background then we'll move into

                    talking about some of the local New Zealand

                    research.

                        (Video played).

                        Let me just provide a little bit of background

                    about that.  About three years ago we built duon(?)

                    blocking solution that plugged directly into

                    New Zealand telco networks.  The reason we did that

                    was because there were no paid streaming options in

                    New Zealand and what we wanted to see was more

                    competition happening in the media market.

                        So just as a show of hands, who here actually

                    uses some form of VPN or DNS due unblocking service?

                    Can you put your hand up?  So we're talking probably

                    over half of the audience.  Just also so I know

                    who's in the room, if you're a New Zealander who's





                                     17





                    either used global mode, provided global mode to

                    your customers or been involved in discussions

                    around the duon(?) blocking issue can you also raise

                    your hand.  So we've got a mostly international

                    audience.

                        Basically what happened is we realised that you

                    had to be a technical user if you wanted to get

                    access to a streaming service from overseas.  In

                    New Zealand we had some legislation that allowed you

                    to remove a technical prevention measure based on a

                    geographic restriction.  We had pretty clear

                    parallel import law which meant you were allowed to

                    buy DVDs off Amazon.

                        What we did was put in place the technology

                    inside the telco which meant to the end user the

                    network service they were trying to access, maybe

                    BBC iPlayer, could be Hulu, could be Amazon, a range

                    of services was transparent to the user.

                        You could get access to your local services and

                    you could get access Netflix before it came to

                    New Zealand, and you could get access to BBC iPlayer

                    without having to make any network configurations.

                        What I'm going to show you is some of the

                    research that happened at that time.  The reason

                    this is -- and kind of what I'm up here to do is to





                                     18





                    provide a different perspective on what issues are

                    occurring from a consumer perspective.  This is

                    going to give you some insight into kind of the way

                    that I guess our end-user customers on the telco

                    networks are thinking.

                        This research was done in April by a

                    third-party organisation called Horizon Research.

                    We asked a really simple question: in your view

                    should New Zealanders be able to access off-shore

                    streaming websites without being restricted by "geo

                    blocking"?  It was relatively overwhelmingly in

                    favour of the removal of geo restriction blocks.

                        I'll go into a little bit more depth if we can

                    move on to the next slide.  The survey went into a

                    little bit more detail and looked under what

                    circumstances was that the case.  In parallel, one

                    of the national newspapers ran a poll of its survey

                    members to see what the overall opinion of

                    New Zealand broadcasters was.  97 per cent said that

                    they really weren't doing a good enough job for what

                    the consumer demand was for.

                        So we went into more depth to look at the what

                    the impact was.  To give you an idea of the scale of

                    this, I think at the time the research said that

                    around 8.1 per cent of New Zealanders had used the





                                     19





                    global mode platform because we were sitting in, I

                    believe, 22 ISPs at the time.

                        At the time of the research I believe

                    5.3 per cent were actively using the platform and

                    3.1 per cent had previously used it.  So it was a

                    relatively wide scale.  Over -- when you correlate

                    that to what the -- against the population, it

                    basically meant there were around 220,000 people who

                    were using some type of geo-based technology on the

                    platform.

                        So really you can see there's quite a wide

                    range of perspectives on it.  Yes, I want to be able

                    to use geolocation under all circumstances.  I want

                    to be able to use it when it's going to give me a

                    price difference, I want to be able to use it when

                    it's going to give me access to content that I could

                    not otherwise get access to previously.  But if you

                    look back in some of our local history, what we see

                    is when we put in place the parallel import law, and

                    allowed the importation of DVDs into the New Zealand

                    market, we saw a shortening of delivery times for

                    DVDs from 12 to 24 months.

                        So when this type of competition comes in

                    market, what we see is price reduction, which has a

                    flow-on impact.  And really when we start to think





                                     20





                    about why this solution was going to be something

                    that was useful, it was more around the fact that we

                    wanted to give consumers a reason to upgrade fibre,

                    and we all know that, really, that content is the

                    driver for increased fibre uptake.

                        So it was a very small percentage of people who

                    said that I don't want to have this available under

                    any circumstances.

                        So we ran this session at NetHui, the

                    international -- so the ISOC NetHui that happened

                    here last year.  You can see the URL on this page

                    but if you go to my blog on bypass all of these

                    resources are available, the PowerPoint, the URLs,

                    and some quite in-depth data, and information about

                    what happens at a regional level across quite a few

                    of the countries in Asia Pacific.

                        The discussion is much wider than just the

                    updating of address information at a network level.

                    To give you an idea, we had one situation, the

                    middle of about two years ago, where we kind of

                    broke about 2,500 Sony TVs because they had an OS

                    update that we weren't aware of and we found out

                    about it because consumers started taking their

                    televisions back to the retail outlet, which caused

                    a bit of issue with one of our telco customers and





                                     21





                    obviously the retail chain and the vendor.  So we

                    kind of had to get into the middle of it and find

                    out exactly what was going on.

                        It does have quite a wide-ranging effect on all

                    different types and areas of the market.  When it

                    came to the debate, what actually occurred in the

                    New Zealand market was we had four or five media

                    players all get together and serve us a lawsuit.  I

                    think we're the second most talked about technology

                    story behind Kim Dotcom -- not somebody I really

                    want to associate my name with, but it was something

                    that did get discussed at quite a national level.

                        When we started to get into forums to discuss

                    this as a community, we really looked at what the

                    potential was.  Because we in New Zealand have some

                    pretty good legislation around consumer protection

                    law.  We don't have government-level blocking and

                    when you started to look at the potential

                    consequence from this discussion happening in a

                    court, it could have set some quite big

                    ramifications from an international precedent.  And

                    when we had the last international conference here

                    it was quite obvious to see how many markets were

                    looking at what was happening in this region at the

                    time.





                                     22





                        But what you can see is that this is a much

                    bigger issue than you, kind of, really think when

                    you look about and think about geolocation issues.

                    It comes down to the right to use a VPN, it comes

                    back to underlying principles around copyright, how

                    information is stored and fought around the

                    internet, how media companies have rights for

                    regional exclusivity, but what are the consumers'

                    rights associated with their choice to purchase

                    content.

                        The information I'm presenting at the moment is

                    all public information, but anecdotally we have data

                    about the fact that when we introduced the service

                    it had a major impact on the reduction of piracy.

                    Some of the other key concerns that came out of the

                    session were that we don't in New Zealand have

                    closed captions, so none of the streaming services

                    are suitable for those who have any form of

                    disability.

                        Internationally, at the same time, if you have

                    a look at what's happening up in Europe, the

                    European Commission is looking about the way that

                    you move data between different countries and the

                    right to use services that are geo-based when you

                    move and travel between locations.  So it's quite a





                                     23





                    complex issue when you're looking at both the

                    consumer perspective and the policy perspective.

                        I'll just leave with you the last slide, and --

                    based on the research that we have from New Zealand

                    and from global web trends of the survey data from

                    last year, which you can see on our website on the

                    blog, on average you've got nearly one in four

                    internet users that are changing their IP location.

                        So it's a much bigger discussion that I think

                    we should be having around why this is occurring,

                    not only just the allocation of IP for space between

                    network providers, but why are the end users

                    actually moving and determining and managing their

                    own IP address space?

                        Thanks for your time.

               <<Adam Gosling (APNIC):  Thank you very much, Matthew.

               APPLAUSE

               <<Adam Gosling (APNIC):  I'd say this as quite an

                    interesting issue because it seems to be geolocation

                    is good or bad depending on where you're standing

                    and what you're trying to do.  I'm sure that's the

                    same for end users whether they're trying to watch

                    streaming services that they're not able to access

                    in their current location, or if they're trying to

                    do something like access their banking site and the





                                     24





                    bank doesn't believe where they are.

                        I'm sure there's a lot of perspectives on this.

                    I know there's a couple of people in the audience

                    who have indicated an interest in speaking at the

                    mic.  But basically I want to open the floor up to

                    see what the community thinks about geolocation and

                    what role APNIC can play and how we can serve the

                    community in this area.

               <<Owen DeLong (Akamai):  We have a little bit of a

                    geolocation database around the world.  We know

                    where a few IP addresses hide anyway.  We don't use

                    Whois.  We might use it as an input if we don't have

                    any other data about an address, but that might last

                    for a couple of hours until we ping it or something.

                        For the most part, what's in Whois is

                    completely irrelevant to our geolocation, and the

                    RIRs are not really in a position to help with that.

                    When we do get it wrong, the best thing to do is

                    send an email to peering@akamai.com and we try to

                    take care of that very rapidly.  We try very hard to

                    not get it wrong and we're willing to work with

                    people on getting it fixed.

                        Taking off my Akamai hat and putting on my

                    personal hat, geofencing your content is a pretty

                    stupid thing to do.





                                     25





                        APPLAUSE

                        Consumers don't like it, it's yet another form

                    of broken DRM that just says, yes, you're paying for

                    this content but we want to tell you how you can use

                    it instead of letting you pay for the content and do

                    what you want for it.

                        It used to be you could go into the record

                    store, buy the record and take the record wherever

                    you want.  I don't know why content producers have

                    suddenly decided that model is no longer acceptable.

                    They need to get over it, they need to recognise the

                    consumers have what they want to do and their job is

                    to sell that to us.  Thank you.

               <<Carlos Martinez (LACNIC):  Hello, my name is Carlos, I

                    work for another RIR but I'm speaking strictly

                    personally.

                        I wonder how we can do something about this.

                    I completely agree with these initiatives are

                    actually providing some forum for people to get

                    around restrictions.  But on the other hand I think

                    the content deliverers, let's say, Netflix, Hulu,

                    whatever; they probably don't like the geofencing

                    either.  This is the problem with the heavily broken

                    and dysfunctional business models of the content

                    industry.  I'm not sure how we technology people can





                                     26





                    do anything about that.

               <<Dean Pemberton (InternetNZ):  Oh "spook spook", I like

                    that.  Every year when I get to the mic I end up

                    with a new nickname for the year.  The last year one

                    was panelbeater, this one looks like "spook spook",

                    awesome.

                        Hi, Dean Pemberton, InternetNZ.  Trying to

                    discern someone's physical location by anything to

                    do with their IP address is just the same as trying

                    to discern what colour shoes they're wearing.  It

                    actually bears very little resemblance.  And we've

                    seen with products like Macs that you can basically

                    take an entire ISP or country and lie about this.

                        I think APNIC is getting it right at the moment

                    with the level of involvement that they want to have

                    in this.  I agree with the previous speaker, I don't

                    think this is a technical problem waiting to happen,

                    I believe all of the motivations for this are on the

                    content side.  I don't think this is a technical

                    thing, I don't see why a technical community

                    particularly wants to get in and drive some of the

                    stuff here.

                        I think recording where the organisation was

                    that was the member that applied for this is

                    probably where we want to go.  There is no way that





                                     27





                    you're going to be able to tell, let alone record,

                    let alone maintain the records of where each

                    individual IP address is.  It's the same as having a

                    Whois record for what colour shoes the person's

                    wearing while they're using it.

               <<Sandra Brown (IPv4 Market Group):  I would look at this

                    from the perspective of the recipient of an IPv4

                    transfer, and my experience with this is

                    occasionally in APNIC region when you have IPs

                    transferred from country to country it takes some

                    amount of time for the geolocators to update, and

                    I've had a few complaints from recipients of IPs,

                    and our experience is that if they do nothing it

                    seems to take about three months and I'm not sure

                    what the mechanism is if, as Owen said, the

                    geolocator database systems don't use RIR data.

                        I don't know what the mechanism is then for how

                    the updated information in the APNIC database gets

                    propagated to the geolocation systems.  And if the

                    recipient of the IPs does reach out to the

                    geolocator systems it seems to be very fast for the

                    updates, so I always recommend that recipients

                    contact the geolocator providers.  And it is a

                    problem for many recipients because they don't like

                    their users doing Google searches in Singapore and





                                     28





                    seeing Chinese data, that kind of stuff.

               <<Mark Foster (NIWA):  Speaking personally.  I see two

                    distinct issues here, and I know Matt Jackson well

                    and I know what he's been doing, and I believe what

                    was said before that geofencing is stupid, I don't

                    think there's any disputing that from the view of

                    most Kiwis in the room at least.

                        However, I'm not sure that's anything that at

                    APNIC level that can really be solved.  I think if a

                    company chooses to geofence their data, it's a

                    commercial decision they've chosen to make, and

                    there's probably other forums where they need to be

                    brow-beaten into submission on that one.

                        But speaking about geolocation in general, my

                    frustration as an end user has always been in the

                    drama there is in trying to get information updated

                    in terms of geolocation.  At the moment it seems to

                    be almost a commercial undertaking.  There are

                    several different geolocation providers who use

                    clearly not RIR-driven means to determine the

                    location of an IP address.  It is a complex process

                    for people, especially who are unfamiliar with the

                    industry, to try and have geolocation information

                    updated and I'm not sure that -- if RIR update is

                    not being used, I'm not sure there's much we can do.





                                     29





                        But perhaps what would be really nice would be

                    some sort of single point of update for people to go

                    to where they can at registration time, or resource

                    transfer time, provide location information to

                    whatever degree is appropriate in one place and know

                    that information will get to all the geolocation

                    providers rather than me having to chase half a

                    dozen of them around the world because a couple of

                    them are out of date.  That's my nirvana, I just

                    don't know this is the forum that's going to achieve

                    that.  Thank you.

               <<Adam Gosling (APNIC):  Great, thank you.

               <<James Ting-Edwards (InternetNZ):  Hello, James

                    Ting-Edwards from Internet NZ.  I'd like to add a

                    perspective on this that -- so I work in policy, I'm

                    a colleague of Dean's but he's tech savvy and I've

                    got a background in law.

                        The issues here do come up prominently in

                    copyright and distribution of streamed video

                    content, but they also go much broader.  Our

                    government, whilst proposing to change tax laws, is

                    proposing to change tax laws to make it easier to

                    tax overseas services, the likes of Netflix or

                    Spotify, or whatever else it might be.  And they're

                    proposing to put an obligation on those overseas





                                     30





                    services to collect tax.  How do you do that?

                        It would be quite convenient from the

                    government point of view if there's a good way to

                    technically identify where someone's coming from.

                    Most law in this area is still drafted in terms of

                    IP addresses.  So as someone working on policy

                    issues, I'd like to know what the parameters are,

                    whether that works and whether it doesn't.  I'm

                    taking Dean's word that it doesn't.  People have

                    purposes that they clearly are using geolocation

                    for.  It turns out to be quite important whether

                    that's a statistical indication, so when you're

                    looking at an aggregate data set you can say what

                    the distribution of locations is versus "this one

                    person is in this one place".

                        The way the tax change could have worked is if

                    you're using a VPN, say you've got a corporate

                    network that's based across Australia and

                    New Zealand, if you make on-line purchases and you

                    appear to be in the Sydney office, suddenly you're

                    committing tax evasion, and your IT people may be

                    accessories in that criminal offence.

                        As a policy person I think it should never be

                    the case that that sort of potential liability

                    affects your technical decisions.  But I and the





                                     31





                    people working for the government need to understand

                    what the realistic parameters are for this mode of

                    geolocation and when you rule it out absolutely and

                    when you say it's useful for this purpose.

               <<Alan Barrett (AFRINIC):  I've heard a few people seem

                    to wish for a way that holders of IP addresses could

                    tell the geolocation providers what their location

                    is.  I have a suggestion for some future work that

                    could make this easier.

                        There's a thing called a DNS loc record which

                    nobody uses, which was specified in 1996 when we

                    were just about doing the transition from the old

                    classful networks to the classless thing that we do

                    today.

                        So how to use a loc record to talk about the

                    location of say a /19 or a /23 or something is not

                    at all well specified.  But somebody could write up

                    a document that specifies how to use loc records,

                    and then people who want to announce their location

                    could start using them.  Thanks.

               <<Klee Aiken (APNIC):  I'm following the Adobe and Ben

                    Martin has a couple of questions.  He asks, can the

                    geolocation service be asked to reload data from

                    Whois when a block is transferred?  Do they provide

                    an update service that address holders can access?





                                     32





               <<Adam Gosling (APNIC):  Thank you, Klee, I'm not sure

                    anyone's really in a position to speak to that.

                    Does anyone feel confident?  Sanjaya's going to have

                    a shot.  Lu?  Owen?

               <<Sanjaya (APNIC):  Part of the geohelp project that

                    Vivek mentioned earlier was actually to attempt an

                    outreach to the geolocation provider so we can

                    answer that kind of question.  At the moment we

                    don't have enough good relations with the

                    geolocation provider to be able to do so, and we

                    intend to actually start having a conversation with

                    them.

                        We don't know whether we can solve the problem

                    or not, but at least, just like security is so big

                    that the first thing we need to do is just start

                    this conversation.  So we intend to have this

                    conversation with the geolocation providers.

               <<Adam Gosling (APNIC):  Thank you, Sanjaya.

               <<Owen DeLong (Akamai):  Owen DeLong, Akamai "geolocation

                    provider" quote, unquote.

                        We don't start with a load from Whois, so we

                    wouldn't reload from Whois.  We measure where things

                    are by a variety of means that are proprietary and

                    I'm not going to get into those details in a public

                    forum, for the obvious reasons.  But suffice it to





                                     33





                    say we're pretty good at knowing where most of the

                    addresses we talk to are.

                        And we learn that pretty quickly when they

                    move.  So I don't think notification when a block

                    transfers to reload Whois is necessarily useful.

                    notification when a block transfers to pay attention

                    to the fact that it transferred might be useful, and

                    I think that we would certainly be willing to

                    cooperate with any such notifications, and we do

                    cooperate when we get notifications from address

                    holders at peering@akamai.com.

                        To address Alan's point, the problem with loc

                    records is loc records don't tell you where the

                    address is, they tell you where the person who

                    controls DNS for the address wants you to think the

                    address is.  And lots of people have lots of reasons

                    for wanting you to think addresses are in places

                    other than where they are.  So down that path lies

                    madness.

                        Finally, to respond to the tax question, it's a

                    very, very simple answer.  When should you use

                    geolocation for IPs for tax purposes or any other

                    sort of legal liability?  Never.  It's nowhere near

                    accurate enough for such a purpose, and even trying

                    to apply a statistical correlation on something that





                                     34





                    might lead to criminal charges is utter folly, it's

                    just a really, really, really bad idea.  Don't do

                    it.  Just don't.

               <<Adam Gosling (APNIC):  Before you go Owen, Akamai's

                    probably technically adept at finding where IP

                    addresses are located.  I guess not everyone is

                    quite up to that stage.

               <<Owen DeLong (Akamai):  We'd like to think so anyway.

               <<Adam Gosling (APNIC):  But I guess there are some

                    third-party providers who maybe don't try as hard or

                    don't have as much incentive to get it right.

               <<Owen DeLong (Akamai):  People are welcome to use our

                    database instead.

               <<Heng Lu (OutsideHeaven):  I'd just like to share a

                    couple of our experiences with RIR database

                    regarding the geolocations.  We do operate in a

                    couple of regions and we do get different feedback

                    from different RIRs about requirement about

                    geolocation of IP addresses.

                        Some RIRs say, okay, it's no problem, whatever

                    you put -- whatever you put in the attribute is your

                    business, it's not a part of need assessment.  Some

                    RIR require you to put the geolocation address to

                    either the country where your company was based, or

                    the location which was actually announced, or where





                                     35





                    the customer was based.

                        So it does interfere and give you options about

                    where you put your customer, yes, but that's one end

                    of the story.

                        Another operation perspective, we do global

                    infrastructure, we have servers in almost every

                    continent, and we do get problems with when people

                    use our IP address in certain areas of the world,

                    and customers come to us to complain, for example,

                    hey, you know, my server is supposed to be located

                    in US but why when you check in Google it shows in

                    Canada or Virginia or whatever.

                        And then when we try to contact the geolocation

                    provider then it's been a very difficult process.

                    It's getting more complicated, there is multiple

                    geolocation providers and as everybody else just

                    said, they clearly don't use the data which were

                    provided in Whois, and they don't even use our

                    announcement location as well, and they seem to have

                    their own unique idea about the location of our IP

                    addresses, our customers, and communication with

                    them being very difficult.

                        So addressing that is a problem, need to be

                    addressed and solved.

                        And last as a user, the copyright thing, and





                                     36





                    the content delivery especially, some of our

                    customers want to control the content to be

                    delivered to a certain country for the reason of

                    their contract with the IP providers, the area they

                    can distribute and stuff like that.

                        So we see quite a few VPN users, or proxy users

                    to get over these boundaries.  I have to say some

                    countries on this planet have less copyright

                    infringement enforcement than the others, and users

                    are trying to jump over these boundaries to get free

                    content.

                        So that's my comment about the issue and I hope

                    I can exchange a bit, thank you.

               <<Klee Aiken (APNIC):  With Ben Martin on the Adobe

                    again.  Thanks, Sanjaya, this is interesting.  He

                    asks: good topic for an informed, if technical,

                    presentation at future conference?

               <<Jessica Shen (CNNIC):  Jessica Shen from CNNIC.  I'd

                    like to share you the IP geolocation experience from

                    CNNIC.  I have a very short slides here.  Let me

                    provide a little bit about the background on that.

                    Actually some big companies are very interested to

                    get the IP geolocation database which they can

                    exactly know where particular IP address is exactly

                    located or used.





                                     37





                        So we have done some researches on that, and

                    currently we have established the IP geolocation

                    database that indicates the specific location where

                    a particular IP address is used.  This database is

                    covering 99.95 per cent of the provinces and 94 of

                    the cities in China.

                        According to my background just now, such

                    database can be popular with CDN content companies,

                    or E-commerce companies to trace IP address, provide

                    CDN service, make smart DNS resolution, or include

                    accurate advertising, some other commercial things.

                        So we have a comprehensive, accurate and

                    continuously updated database.

                        The basic process, we established the IP

                    geolocation database are three steps.  Maybe next

                    slide.  Thank you.  We collect several IPv4

                    geolocation databases in China, analyse and mix

                    them.  Then we get a maximum of IP geolocation

                    database.

                        Second, we use CNNIC's real geolocation

                    database as the benchmark.  Then we optimise IP

                    geolocation database by some technical methods.  We

                    continuously update the database using such

                    measures.

                        I share it with you to see what your thoughts





                                     38





                    about our geolocation database are and see if we can

                    cooperate on this area to establish a broader IP

                    geolocation database.  Thank you.

               <<Adam Gosling (APNIC):  Thank you, Jessica.  Before you

                    go, can I just be clear, this is a service provided

                    by CNNIC?  So you run the database?

               <<Jessica Shen (CNNIC):  Yes.

               <<Adam Gosling (APNIC):  You make it freely available?

               <<Jessica Shen (CNNIC):  We are still doing the planning.

                    We have completed the database, but we haven't

                    decided how to operate it.

               <<Adam Gosling (APNIC):  Okay, thank you very much.

                        Any other takers?  Comments, thoughts?

                        Okay, I think we've got an early break.  Thanks

                    very much for your time, everyone.  I think we're

                    back in here for the APRICOT closing.  Is that

                    correct?  Okay, yeah back in here.  Thanks very much

                    everyone.

               APPLAUSE.

















                                     39